Pay to play?

An interesting post over on Created in Birmingham about the Surface Unsigned festival, who seem to have threatened legal action against them solely for pointing out that the festival may possibly amount to being pay to play, since you need to bring along at least 25 people all paying six quid. Anyone from round here have experience of pay to play? Is it really the devil’s work or could there be benefits to be had? Have any Oxford bands had dealings with this lot?

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  • Beaver Fuel

    “The purpose of this festival is to find the next big thing in the UK band scene.”

    Well, that just says ‘we are out to rip people off’ to me. What organisation is really interested in the next big thing unless they can make a lot of cash out of it? It’s not quite pay to play as such, but it looks like a scam of sorts.

  • si giant

    Sounds similar to the Emergenze set up – an unsigned talent contest where the winners were based on audience vote rather than talent. So the more paying fans you bought the better your chance of getting through.

  • http://www.musicinoxford.co.uk stuart

    Oh yes, here’s the link to the debate we had on the Nightshift messageboard around the same time. I think it brings up some of the same issues: http://nightshift.oxfordmusic.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=2656&highlight=emergenza

  • colinmackinnon

    So Emergenza were a glorified Battle of the Bands contest. This one sounds nearly as cynical. Who gets the money?

  • http://www.musicinoxford.co.uk stuart

    Well, from the original post, it looks like someone’s getting paid well out of these shows even if it’s not the bands.

    ‘ From how empty the venue was, it meant a lot of bands must of eat shit on ticket sales and bought them themselves, you also only get the money back from tickets sales if you sell all 25 which is even then only a pound a ticket. So for 25 £6 tickets, the bands get £25 and Surface gets £125 now there are a minimum of six band at each gig so that means each gig they get a minimum of £750 (not to much maths I hope, my head kinda pickled as it is but I will push on regardless), now the first round of the Birmingham heats there are 38 gigs, which adds up too £28,500! just for the first round, all this, according to the booklet, going towards

    “Sound engineer, Venue, Booth Operative, Security, Bar staff, PA, Lighting etc”’

    So if you got 24 people in at six quid, you wouldn’t get paid anything, and if you get more you still only get £1 per ticket…? Hmm.

  • si giant

    And it was fixed too. I was involved with a band in Bristol who got through to the regional final. I put a gig on at the Louie and the soundman happened to be working the final as well during our discussion he revealed that they had decided who would win beforehand. Only one band got to soundcheck (the “winners”) everyone else had to get on stage and just go for it.

  • http://www.gappytooth.com gappy tooth

    It is hard to break even, let along make money as a promoter. But, ultimately, I’d say it’s your problem, you have to have the knowledge to match the expenses to the predicted turnout.

    Having said that, any band who pays to play dopes so on their own decision – I think it’s dumb, but what do I care if you want to? But, I’d say that if you’re prepared to pay to play, it’s money better spent to book a small venue yourself, get some amusing supports and invite all your mates along. That’s what we did, effectively & 6 years later GTI is still going strong!!

    Contrary to most people, I think that BOTBs are good fun, and harmless. but not stuff liek this & EMerganza, friendlyu little ones like the Chalgrove fest 1st night, or the annual OU/Brookes battle. I’d also suggest that you must have a panel of judges, because audience votes are worthless. I’ve been a judge many a time, & it’s a right laugh…altho, it can be awkward when the panel disgarees…

  • Beaver Fuel

    “any band who pays to play DOPES so on their own decision”

    The typo seems closer to the truth than what you intended to say!

    I agree though that if you’re going to lose money, do it on your own terms, don’t line anyone else’s pockets.

  • colinmackinnon

    As for Created in Birmingham, I’ve just read the original post and much as I hate Surface Unsigned, CiB should probably be shut down forthwith, even without lawyerly threats. Why?

    A) Their blogging is a crime against grammar.

    B) They have reviews of Ceramics

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  • Lupin

    Having played in a four piece band in Birmingham and being knocked out of the second round – it’s easy to see what this thing is all about. It’s a “who brings the most money to the organisers” competition. 0 to do with band ability and composition. The worst bands imaginable get through simply because they’re guaranteed to sell tickets on the next round (which conveniently goes up £1 per round, each round) due to their teen groupies.

    Wouldn’t touch anything like this ever again — a warning to any bands that think this kind of thing will help them – devote your time to the music, do not waste your effort on “festivals” such as these.

  • Mr D

    Interesting reading about surface unsigned..the 2008 final has finnished,the chairmen won,and the talk about the winners is they are signed by the guy who run Surface unsigned.Don’t know if its true,anybody out there can shed any light.

  • http://n/a ElAbortionist

    Try Truck Festival’s “Pay £15 for THE PRIVELAGE of being considered to play by uploading demos” to our festival

  • http://www.last.fm/music/spiral+25 Joe

    Yes, pay to play is evil.

    Never to a gig for a promoter called “Movers & Shakers” club who operate out of a couple of venues in London. They are pay to play as well being exceptionally bad at communicating.

    Thereare very little benefits to be had, if any, in playing these gigs. They entice you in with “Music Industry” people and ‘famous’ DJs. The music industry people are most likely to be someone’s friend who has written a review for the local music mag or something.

    If decent music industry people are around they aren’t going to spend their time going to shitty gigs in places like Lewisham.

  • http://www.myspace.com/thescholars Tim

    Definitely milks new and inexperienced bands for all they’re worth when they are not familiar with the possible pitfalls. Almost fell into something similar to Surface Unsigned which disappeared completely and returned as a shadey “Win a gig in America!” company.

    In a way The Zodiac propogates a ‘pay to play’ sentiment with the “we will consider you for further supports if you bring (x amount) of people” regardless of quality of music – a terrible band in Birmingham were granted an elusive main support slot at The Academy 2 while we were rejected after selling out a headline show at The Actress and Bishop. Very frustrating indeed!

  • Phill

    “In a way The Zodiac propogates a ‘pay to play’ sentiment with the “we will consider you for further supports if you bring (x amount) of people” regardless of quality of music”

    Really? I’ve never had that – everyone has always been friendly there from my, somewhat limited, experience. Yeah it sucks to be on so early all the time but i think the deal you get is ok and they’ve never asked us for x amount of people

  • Tom

    People! Surface Unsigned is not a waste of time, we hired a bus for the first 2 rounds and got 50 poeple going through networking to friends and family. My band, Into Erebus (www.myspace.com/intoerebusuk) have been knocked out today in the third round but man, we had so much fun. you initially pay £50 pounds REFUNDABLE money, given back to you at the first round along witht the money you make from the tickets so actually, you dont lose anything. Its just like a small BOTB only bigger and better and you make money, and at round 3 there is a judge anyway its only the first 2 rounds that rely on points but is that really so bad? It encourages you to promote yourselves as a band and to set yourselves a goal.

    The only thing that can let you down in this is your motivation (or lack of it) to do well and push boundaries!

  • Ronan

    “Its just like a small BOTB only bigger”

    Quote of the day.

  • http://www.facebook.com/thejoechapman Joe

    Avoid Movers and Shakers. Terrible rubbish. Some of the promoters have gotten wiser to the traditional pay to play ‘business’ model and are now being more sneaky about it but it amounts to the same thing.

    Can an organisation really be defamed and then sue people? Not so sure about that.

  • colinmackinnon

    Why is this coming up again?

  • http://www.facebook.com/thejoechapman Joe

    “Tom(15 July 2010, 11:24 pm)”

    Followed by Ronan, then me. I saw it on the home page.

    “It encourages you to promote yourselves as a band and to set yourselves a goal.” – Tom

    It’s completely unnecessary really as far as I can see, you should be promoting yourselves and setting goals anyway. What did you actually gain from it? Was it just a case of shipping a load of people who already like you or have seen you including friends and family to the gig(s) or did you gain a new fan base that you could not have gained by playing a normal gig?

    In any case, I won’t play for people who threaten bands and individuals with legal action just for criticising the way they do business. They’ve got no leg to stand on legally anyway.

    “The only thing that can let you down in this is your motivation (or lack of it) to do well and push boundaries!”

    So you’re saying that if you don’t want to try so hard at playing this sort of ‘gig’ you lack motivation? Not at all, I lack motivation to hand over loads of money at a risk (come on, there must have been a condition on the number of people you get in, why would they want the money up front?) but I don’t lack motivation to do the kinds of gigs that bands normally play. This sort of thing is hardly pushing boundaries.